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BioDiesel - Experienced views wanted, good or bad

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nathanrobo
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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Location: Northants - UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 22:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

By refined Biodiesel do you mean methyl ester derived from vegetable oil?  Or do you mean methyl ester properly manufactured to stringent standards such as are applied to Petrol and PetroDiesel?  I've heard of some reporting lower power (occasionaly some reporting increased power) and many saying the Biodiesel leads to smoother running.  With the Bio that I have produced it definitely does not smell of chip shop and has very little in the way of odour.  

I've come accross a number of folk running their LC on BD including the guys at Utah Biodiesel who run a newer model Lexus 4 x 4 (not sure if it's the LX though) and a Lexus saloon.  The guys practically kicked off the BD movement in the U.S. where BD is popular Eco reasons and to reduce depency on foreign oil.  As I mentioned earlier I suffered a blocked IP but now damage whatsoever, having now put the LC together with valve clearances adjusted, she sounds great!  

I plan to clean fully clean the fuel tank to strip out the dino-diesel varnish and continue to run it on B50.  I'm adding a final polishing set up to my BD with centrifuge to remove anything not caught by my machine's filters and for belt and braces, a super heavy duty filter set up with partical counter capable of removing residues and water. I plan to use this after blending my fuel 50 /50 so what ever goes into my tank will be cleaner than pump diesel.  It would be interesting to take my cylinder head off and get my ip checked in 10 miles to see if I'm right...  I'll keep posting!
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deltafive
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Joined: 06 May 2007
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Location: WARWICK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reputedly it was properly refined and it was a stable consistent product, a couple of local haulage firms were using it in older trucks with no major problems that I heard of. It was 100% recycled cooking oil at first and later 50% rape oil mix due to shortage of cooking oil,  buying rape oil must have made the economics marginal. There are others making and using bio in various forms or mixing rape oil with pump diesel and they smell like a chipshop too, like me quite a lot of people have tried it and dropped it.
I am doubtfull that biodiesel can be produced commercially, the tax paid and be profitable because most drivers are only interested in cheaper fuel rather than environmental gain. It would be nice if engines that will run on straight rape oil were widely available but if/when they are the taxman will want his share of any advantage.

Dave
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grannymagic
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 20:43    Post subject: Bio diesel Reply with quote

Hi guys did a bit on bio a while back but not sure what happened to it.

I worked for a bio company building home reactors, I still make and use bio now 5 years on.

Wouldnt have my LC if I couldnt.

Biggest problem is the guy who made it. If you buy someone else's fuel you rely on them knowing how to make it and test it.

However if you make your own then you should know how to make it properly and how to make sure its ok for the car.

Biodiesel will not and cannot damage and engine or pump unless it is made or finished incorrectly!

Oh and as for the bad bio thats about, that the governments fault as there is so little profit in making good fuel that most people end up rushing it to try to get some money back in.

I never use fossil diesel apart from winter and there isnt a diesel car I wouldnt use it in at least 50/50.

Any queries please give me a shout.
regards
Jonathan.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 21:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Granny

Agree 100% with all that you say.  It has to be said though that a lot of folk buy a machine, make fuel (following the instructions), put it in their car and then have  problems (I did).  It's through experience that you learn about polishing, water and residue removal and few standard bio processors come with sufficient polishing set ups.

My current set up with all the polishing double the initial cost of my processor.  But I'm very confident of what I make and even run it 100% in my 2.4 alfa which is a common rail.
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.
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stu58
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the out lay on the equipment and the hours of work financially beneficial, I've looked at the set up prices and can't see you making it profitable for a lot of years or do you guys do megga miles? Even buying it from someone that produces bio fuel the savings arn't that great, must be due to the government seeing the chance to rip the motorist off again, and like you say buying it is it worth the risk of a new fuel pump if not produced correctly.

Stu.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu,

Paid £800 for the main processor and my polishing station cost around the same, with ongoing costs of 25 -30p per litre.  The polishing station was added gradually and I've been doing it for nearly 3 years... so you do the math.  It paid for itself in less than the first year and every litre since is a bonus.
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.
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stu58
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Joined: 30 Jun 2011
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Location: Co. Durham.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 14:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nathan how many miles a year do you do? also what's the final cost per litre? I'm not putting anyone down just when I did my maths on the kit a few years ago it was very expensive unless I could of help out 1 or 2 of the local taxi firms  Wink It maybe time to look into the system again.

Stu.
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nathanrobo
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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Location: Northants - UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 14:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu

At the moment, I'd estimate about 12K miles in my Alfa and 5K miles in my LC.   You are allowed to make 2500 litres per year and I reckon that I'm spending less than £0.30p including power to make my fuel.  That means that I'm saving at current prices in excess of £2500 per year.  Some folk buy their feedstock from traders and pay maybe £0.30 per litre, but I have great relationships with a few small restaurants. I've offered all of them money for the oil, but most of them are just happy to have someone local, whose reliable to collect.

The time I spend for each batch is about 2 hours spread over a few days (some folk make their fuel in a few hours).

Don't forget that us LC lovers are responsible for more than our share of emissions, but bio is carbon neutral and burns cleaner than dino diesel (which is great at mot time).

I now resent the times that I have to buy it.
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nathanrobo
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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Location: Northants - UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 18:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu

Forgot to mention that you could easily build a system yourself.  Mostly consisting of a conical tank with inspection, a self priming vane pump, some 1" & 1/2" pipework with valves, a simple spray bar, venturi valve or something else that will create a bit of suction to pull in methoxide and an immersion heater element.
Plus a bit of filtration (big blue)

Alternatively google GL Eco system (developed by Graham Laming), if you're a bit more technically competent. I suspect that all in you would spend no more than £350 - £400.

If you then bought a couple of polishing pots with SDFC filters £100, with an additional pump for about 16 litres per minute flow, you'd be there.  I've gone a little OTT with my final polish with polishing pots, an expensive gear pump and a centrifuge.  Send me a pm if you want my phone number to discuss in more detail.
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stu58
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nathan thanks for all the info, looks like the price of equipment has come down a lot since I first checked it out, I don't do a lot of miles and my second vehicle (according to there forum) would need the fuel pump changed to an earlier pump from Bosch to Lucas. My friend runs on nearly pure veggie oil using the old pump without any problems. I'm going on holiday soon so when I get back and funds have been built back up I'll look into it and if I get stuck or I'm not sure I'd be greatful for a chat to discuss it.

Thanks for all the info,

Stu.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu

Enjoy your hols and by all means contact me when you're back.

btw what is the other car? Before you change an IP i'd get advice, assuming that your other car is not early '90s or older I'm not aware of cars that have problems with well made bio.  

A good resource is http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php  Someone on the forum will have knowledge / experience of your car.
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stu58
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a 1999 Transit 2.5td, I'll check out the site you've sent and have another look around the tansit forum, I think it has something to do with it clogging the pump up but need to double check to be 100% sure.

Stu.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu,

I clogged up the pump on my Landcruiser last autumn.  I took it to TT Automotive, who stripped it down cleaned it, put in a new filter and re-calibrated it.  Bottom line is that the problem was caused by poor fuel polishing.  I added in a centrifuge (which filters to 0.3 micron - your fuel filter is 10 micron) and put a pair of polishing pots in that remove water/moisture and any production residues.  Very few producers will be at this level of purity / cleanness but it's far cleaner than normal diesel and therefore shouldn't cause problems.

The other thing to do before switching to bio is to strip your tank out and have it steam cleaned, as normal diesel builds up a varnish in the tank over time - Bio with it's solvent properties will strip the varnish out and flush it through the system.  Most folk believe simply changing the filter will do the job, but in reality the varnish build up becomes soluble and can pass through the filter once saturated and may block the pump... well that's my understanding anyway.
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.
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stu58
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 13:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

That make a lot of sense and I'm sure that not many people go into the preperation like you, and the tank clean makes a lot of sense, I can see a lot of work ahead if I decide to change over. Only thing bigging me is do you change back to full diesel in winter as I've heard bio can wax up or do you run at a say 50/50 mix, and if you go back to full diesel would that mean a tank clean every spring.

Stu.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 17:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu,

The tank clean's an easy one as the tank comes out without too much bother.  ref the winter use, it depends on your feedstock!  If you use vegetable oil (runny when cold), you won't experience waxing unless it's very, very cold.  I've run straight through the last 3 winters on 100% bio.  Starting will take a couple of seconds longer, by adding 20 -30% dino diesel you'll eliminate waxing even at extreme temperatures.

If you use solid or semi-solid feedstock then you will start to wax at sub-zero temps.  There is an additive that some on the biodiesel forum use called 'coldflow' which is designed for fuel derived from solid feedstock.

Btw where are you based, if practical we could meet up and I'd be happy to show you what I do.
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.
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