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Crispin · Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 23:20 Post subject: A LCputer is born

Finally I have the bits and pieces for my carputer. These consist of:
*Atom 330
*Pico 90w PSU
*60GB OS Drive (Will be SSD as soon as they don't cost an arm and a leg!)
*500GB for music etc (pretty much anything I don't mind loosing due to vibration)
*Wireless N dongle.
finally,
* LinITX 8" 4:3 VGA/Composite Monitor with Touchscreen - LED Backlight

So far, everything is still sitting on my table in bits and pieces building it all.
I'm pretty much going to think out loud here and hope you don't do what I have done. Like Gary's sig: "Some people think ahead, others think, "Oh, s**t!"" I am mostly in the latter...

The PC purchase was a spontaneous thing. It was on e bay for £80 which was a Atom 330 (I knew I wanted that), a case, a PicoPSU 90W (I knew the brand and thought "fine, it'll work") and 1GB of memory.
So PC arrives and all is fine. It's in a steel case which is made for the board. I cannot change it to something else. Not the end of the world but also limits to what I can do.

The PC was actually sold as "an industrial computer". What they failed to mention was all the connectors were proprietary for the PSU and non were supplied. Whip out the soldering iron, snip some cables from a spare PSU I have, some delicate soldering and viola: A working pica PSU.

Non of the power buttons for the PC were exposed externally as well. Not sure what they were thinking when they did this.....
Off to Maplin to get some switches.
Is that a nice plastic case I see there that might just fit the board? For £7 you can only try.
After a lot of drilling and filling I make the back plate of the box fit the motherboard. Some homemade standoffs and all is well and mounted inside my nice plastic box (Duly noted on RFI / EFI. I will cross that bridge if and when I get there.)

Some pics so far:

The original black steel case, everything working perfectly so time for me to rip it apart

Clearer view of inside. The thing is small. 170X170X45.

The new plastic box. Perspective is all screwed up though. Box is only slightly bigger than original

Marked out all the holes and started drilling and filing. After much swearing, I am getting a dremmel for my birthday.

Bored dog because dad's busy playing with computer stuff again.

After cut out and lots of filing

pcb stand made from screws and locking nuts together.

A lot more room in the new box. There is a wifi USB dongle in the void now as well as bluetooth. I will also be adding an Arduino.

Some buttons and LEDs on the front panel. Even though it's under the seat.

I have not yet turned on the monitor and tried it out. Will get to it soon. This weekend I am hoping, heavily pregnant wife permitting, to fit the monitor to the dash. Want to try and find a nice ball joint for it first.

Things I would not do again:
*Buy the PicoPSU 90.
*buy the "industrial" PC

That said, it did only cost me £85 all in. It's about 1/4-1/3 of the price of all the individual parts. A saving that makes the slight inconvienince for it.
The problem I have with the PicoPSU - It needs a regulated(!!!!!!) 12v. This pretty much sucks as the car's running voltage is 13.8V. Normally this would be within tolerance but I read up on it and it said "Over voltage protection kicks in at ~13.2V" Damn. I'll have to "make a plan" with that then.
Most PSUs will accept anything from 12-26V. I will put three 7812's together which will give me 12V@3A. Not ideal but hey...

Power usage:
I ran the PC with different "uses" and watched the current consumption. Lowest was 1.2A when "idle" (nothing running, drive spinning) Peak of 2A when installing windows, average 1.7A and finally, 130ma when sleeping.
With the above, leaving it on all the time would not work. Although, having the dual battery my 120 would last a very long time. When sleeping, I don't think it would pose a problem for many many days. Anyone know what the quiescent current is on the 120? Doubt an extra 130ma will hurt it?

Hard drive mounting:
I have mounted the drive on the lid of the box with some velcro. I figure the softness between the velcro will absorb the smaller vibrations. Maybe not...
I may put it in some foam and just wedge it inside the box somewhere. Velcro? Good or bad?
_________________
Cheers,
Crispin
Have Snorkel, Will Swim

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wildsmith · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:46 Post subject:

Your're making good progress there Crispin. How nippy is the Atom 330, I've not had the pleasure of using those, only the Via chips.

On the PSU front, being under voltage will be as much of an issue as over if not more so. First when you start the car the voltage will drop and probably reset the PC although if the PSU design is poor more 'interesting' things can happen. If your battery is ever a bit run down then when the engine isn't running you will dip well below 12v as well. The PSU's designed for use in a car overcome these problems and also have some useful extras for turning it on and making sure it turned off without you having to sit and wait for it.
_________________
Jon m0zxj

01 UZJ100 lifted (AHC & 40mm BL), ARB locked f&r, cryo'd 4.88's, TJM front bumper, 12k goldfish, sliders, rack, snorkel, 35's, storage, aux power etc.
93 HDJ80 sold
94 HDJ80 RIP

Crispin · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:32 Post subject:

Thanks.... All a bit haphazard at the moment.

The undervoltage is a problem. I forgot to mention this.
As the power socket was not one I had floating around, I soldered a couple wires to it and connected it to a 7AH battery I have. I hooked the charger (simple 2A Pb charger) to the battery as well to help out. With no load, the battery was at 13V. PC on and it dropped to 12.8. The PC was mostly ok with with this. Did not notice any issues. As the PC was pulling more than the charger could give, we slowly went backwards. As the battery hit 12, funny things started to happen. The PC would freeze for upto 45 seconds (was the worst one) and then come back to life. This mostly happened when the HDD and CPU was busy (Installing service pack)

I have since found a spare 12V 5A switch mode PSU which I hacked apart to use and no problems. (Stupidly though, not yet measured the voltage on it)

In a car environment, this will be worse. I suspect I will be getting a different PSU soon. Pico make one who's input is 12-26V which is perfect. The under voltage will still be an issue though. I have two options I have thought about:

1) Have it's own battery. Something like a 3AH (maybe 7 if I can find the room). When the engine is running, the battery is charging and will also pick up any dip in the supply.
2) build a DC/DC converter to up the 12V car to something like 16-20 and use aforementioned PicoPSU.
3) fit a mammoth cap (1F) and let that take up any dips (doubtful it will work)

I think option 1 is the best bet. If the PC goes mad and does not turn off for some reason, this battery will die. I'll still be able to start the car.
Still, a 12V battery will hover around 12V when not on charge and when is use, dip easily below. If the PSU / PC is as sensitive as it appears, this would make it not workable.

The Atom seems pretty nifty. Not done any real tests with it but seems to behave much like my PC speed wise.
It is currently let down by the HDD which is only a 5400 2.5inch jobbie. That is noticable. In due corse it will be upgraded.
The one feature I liked was the lack of bios info on boot. You can turn it all off. So, power on and all you see is a black screen. then a small number bottom right of the screen counting very quickly to 10 and then the OS loads. Makes it look less like a computer. I was thinking of making it turn on when the interior lights come on when to turn the alarm off.

So far, I am happy(ish) with what I have. PSU aside, it is all good.
Will hook up the monitor today and see how that goes.
_________________
Cheers,
Crispin
Have Snorkel, Will Swim

wildsmith · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:28 Post subject:

The problem with big caps or a small battery is that unless they are disconnected from the car electrics during starting your PSU will still see a big voltage drop as the starter pinches power from those as well. If you wire them through a voltage sense relay to only be in circuit when the engine is runing then you have limited capacity when you want to sit with the engine off for any length of time. I'd just get one of the commercial PSU's designed for a car environment like this http://linitx.com/viewproduct.php?prodid=10598 and save yourself a lot of trouble. Even if your PC doesn't have an ATX connector just use the M1ATX as a dumb DC-DC converter that can cope with 6-24v input and connect the 12v line output to your existing PSU input. If you check the voltages available you'll probably find you could just substitute the M1ATX for your existing PSU though with a bit more soldering and take advantage of its other features Wink

The power sense line on mine is wired via an on-off-on switch. One on position is constant 12v, the other is aux position on the ignition switch. The computer can be on, off or automaticaly going on and off with the ignition. There are times when you don't want the computer to keep going on and off but want just one of those states to prevail Laughing

_________________
Jon m0zxj

01 UZJ100 lifted (AHC & 40mm BL), ARB locked f&r, cryo'd 4.88's, TJM front bumper, 12k goldfish, sliders, rack, snorkel, 35's, storage, aux power etc.
93 HDJ80 sold
94 HDJ80 RIP

garystockton · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:39 Post subject:

Eish - far too much PT!!

Take it you've painted the nursery etc. etc. and are now avoiding SWAMBO for the duration Wink

I think this is why I'd go for a commercial unit - and why I've decided to use my notebook in this role until such time as I've got the spare pennies to put a dedicated box of tricks together!

Which seat are you putting it under? Is ther enough room? I seem to think that it's pretty full down there with the SatNav DVD under the driver seat and the audio amp under the passenger seat? Or does the LC4 not have the audio amp under the passenger seat?

Interesting project though!
_________________
I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
- Terry Pratchett

Crispin · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:59 Post subject:

garystockton · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 13:26 Post subject:

Nuclear Chicken · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:43 Post subject:

Nice one. And about the carputer. What the heck's it for?
_________________
'04 KDJ120R LC5. Died 17th Dec 2010. RIP.

Crispin · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 16:06 Post subject:

Crispin · Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 0:31 Post subject:

finally got the computer stable and ready to go in. Tomorrow's job.

Had some issues with heat in the case. With no ventilation, the ambient temp went up to 60c with the proc hitting 70 at one point. While it is all within spec, it's not ideal and things will break. The hard drive would be first. I tried a number of fans (40mm and 25mm) but they were to noisy. There is an app called speedfan which mostly works well but some some reason, would not work on this. The warmer things got, the more it would slow the fan down. Pretty odd.
I eventually found a fan in my box of tricks which at full tilt is near silent. Half it's speed and you cannot hear it. Things are now a cozy 30c inside the case which is far better.

Another issue I had was a conflict between the touch screen and wifi. Oddest thing I ever heard of but sticking the touch screen controller on a USB hub did the trick. Took me a couple of days to work it out though.

So, with the PC running and running cool enough, tomorrow it will all go into the car.

Things still to do are navigation software (seems memory map is the way to go?) and the all important gps. Then I'll be happy with it. Until the positioning updates get started
_________________
Cheers,
Crispin
Have Snorkel, Will Swim

Nuclear Chicken · Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:52 Post subject:

Good stuff. Cool

Have to admit, whay beyond what I'd be bothered with. I kinda like the 'nut 'n' bolts' type mods and repairs the best. Laughing

_________________
'04 KDJ120R LC5. Died 17th Dec 2010. RIP.

wildsmith · Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 19:56 Post subject:

Yep heat is the enemy with these units but the metal cases do dump the heat better than a plastic one will and the Vroom ones even more so but they still need the fans. This is why I have no faith in the in dash DIN sized units, not much air flow behind a dash.

Did you try the touch screen in different ports on the main board? I did have one build where it wanted to be in the 1st port to work ... You know it shouldn't make any difference, I know it, but does the machine know it Laughing

_________________
Jon m0zxj

01 UZJ100 lifted (AHC & 40mm BL), ARB locked f&r, cryo'd 4.88's, TJM front bumper, 12k goldfish, sliders, rack, snorkel, 35's, storage, aux power etc.
93 HDJ80 sold
94 HDJ80 RIP

Crispin · Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 21:02 Post subject:

I tried every which way. It really was and still is, an odd one. Not the end of the world tough, I glued a small tesco 4 port hub on the top of the case and all is well now. Also have 3 more USB ports for other things.

I agree about the in dash units. There is not many ways for heat to escape from under the dash. As heat rises, it'll all sit nicely at the top. Pretty sure it will have an effect on something after a few years.
I'm amazed at the number of little black boxes hidden away. One just under the glove box which has a sticker on it: "4x4 computer". Only had 6 wires coming out of it.

Anyway, pc is now in the car (forgot to take pics!) but still not working as expected. Sad

When it is on the desk it has no problem connecting to my wifi. Not since the USB hub story. Not once did it fail to connect. Put it in the car, nudda. It can see the network but try to connect and after 30 seconds it just gives up. Bring it back inside, fine. In the car, nudda. Luckily though someone fool on my street has unprotected network so I can connect to his and still control the pc from the comfy of my study...
I'll sort this out at some point...

Will post pics. It's not as clean as Jon's mount and has some wobble in it. Connect the extra support bracket and it has no forward / backwards wobble but left / right is still an issue. Still, it's a work in progress....
_________________
Cheers,
Crispin
Have Snorkel, Will Swim

Crispin · Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 21:05 Post subject:

PtP · *** Joined: 20 May 2009 Posts: 184 Location: Stourbridge

With all the recent talk of installing PCs, I spotted a for sale advert for a Vasari Marine PC

http://www.vasari.net/marine_pcs.php
This looks similar to what’s needed. I suspect the prices are on the expensive side if this stuff is for marine applications. The advert also included one of these touch-screen monitors, which might be another option for an installation.

VL-1020
10.2" Widescreen 16:9 LCD Panel
Resolution: 1024 x 768 (XGA)
15 pin VGA Input, plus 2 Composite Video inputs.
3 Level Dimmer control
USB Touch Panel control
_________________
Peter
100 Series 2003 VX Diesel Automatic