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Throttle response and black smoke

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gareths3831
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Joined: 03 Oct 2015
Posts: 2
Location: angus

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 14:21    Post subject: Throttle response and black smoke Reply with quote

Hi everyone, just bought myself another 120 3.0 D4D manual 2005 LC3. Having an issue with it and cant seam to figure it out. Starts perfectly every time without hesitation or noises etc. After a few minutes driving the throttle starts to get hesitant at certain rev ranges and small puffs of black smoke. First place I started was stripping and cleaning the throttle body and EGR (which were pretty clogged to be honest). All cleaned and refitted was hoping that would cure it after seeing just how clogged it was but was still the same slightly worse if anything. Another thing I have noticed when cruising along at say 40 it fells like the power is pulsing just wont sit happy and cruise along. Any help would be great cheers.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 14:21    Post subject: Google Ads keep this community free to join!


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aussiearthur
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Joined: 06 Mar 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:09    Post subject: Resolution of hesitation issues? Reply with quote

Hi Gareths3831

Just wondering if there was any resolution in relation to your issues.
I’m going through very similar problems on my 2007 1KD auto.

It costing me a lot of time and effort without any outcome yet achieved.

Kind regards,
Chris.
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 18:38    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthur, that post was in 2018, so you may not get a reply.
Contact TONYC on here. He may post if he sees this. If you need more details come back.
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TONYCY11
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Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 409
Location: CYPRUS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 19:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

aussiearthur you say you have spent time and money what have you done so far to rectify problem may I ask , as we can rule out the things you have tried so far
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 21:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done Tony. There may be some delay, as I believe from posts elsewhere, it's with Toyota at the moment. 😕
Out of desperation I suppose. ☹
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karl2000
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Joined: 25 Apr 2021
Posts: 318
Location: North West

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toyota will probably give him a bill for changing the spark plugs
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, even though it's diesel ! 😁
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

aussiearthur, not heard from you recently. What was the outcome with your problem at Toyota.
Let us know mate, may be of use to someone else.
If they only opened your wallet, come back, We/TonyC is more than willing to help out if we can.
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aussiearthur
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Joined: 06 Mar 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents,
Very sorry for slow response and a big thanks to @Tractionman for flagging that I’d missed responding to  @TonyCY11.
I have just got car back and will post a long-winded update here in next post. But first of all, quick summary of works done recently:

Car is:
- 1kd 2007
- 213km
- auto

Fault:
- whether hot or cold, there is a fairly significant amount of hesitation/ surging occurring at 2100rpm, 2300rpm and 2400rpm. The car physically slows and rpm drop, lasts about a second and then surges forward. A few seconds later it repeats, and will continue until I move out of this rev range.

- no issues evident at other rpm ranges
- it is repeatable every drive.
- am concerned that this is damaging the engine.
- NO fault codes
- no smoke
- car runs beautifully otherwise.
- issue occurs using either the accelerator pedal or cruise control (so have assumed it’s not an accelerator position sensor issue).

There are a few threads in Pradopoint and New HiluxD4D forums which state similar issues (vehicles have similar manufacture dates too), but none of them ever reach closure on this issue.

I have:
- checked and cleaned heaps of electrical connections
- cleaned MAP and MAF sensors and filters, cold start idle values look ok.
- replaced MAP sensor
- cleaned EGR valve, the manifold and the cooler.
- turbo and stepper replaced at about 190k
- fuel filters (x2) and air filters recently replaced.
- SCV replaced ( with the long version)
- injectors replaced.
- swapped the whole throttle body (with TPS) with another.
- I performed a fuel leak test via Techstream, which saw the system hit its target set point and hold there with no codes thrown.

I feel like this is related to RPM, as I can consistently repeat this issue at the stated rpm levels.

could there be a link here to a sensor that is feeding the ecu some dud information - ie transmission speed sensor, egr valve, or a fuel temp sensor???

I would be absolutely grateful for any assistance on where to look next.
kind regards.
chris
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aussiearthur
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Joined: 06 Mar 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 13:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

As expected, the wrestling with Toyota has taken many weeks and to be honest has been rather pointless.
After taking the workshop manager for a 1 hour drive to thoroughly go through the history and surging issues on the road - I thought we might make some progress.
Unfortunately it rained a fair bit, caused some major flooding and the workshop shut for a week or so. I finally got a call nearly two and a half weeks later to say that they’d managed to get a code (small surprise since it hasn’t thrown a code for the last 12 months). Somehow technician ouldn’t ‘recall’ the code, but was related to fuel primer and filter $390.
Not surprisingly it made no difference at all - very much a case of some unnecessary work, sell some parts and get it out the door.
They also wouldn’t share their Techstream data with me. I had hoped this might be a reasonable request??

So….after that failure the search continues.
I have found a great little service bulletin from denso.
I can’t seem to post the URL here, but on page two it shows a really handy little schematic of some key inputs that the ECU relies on to make informed decisions about fuel delivery.
Type into Google “prado 1kd denso service bulletin fuel injection pump”. Should be the first PDF.

After reading this, I am realizing that my troubles are so consistent, easily repeatable and somewhat dependent on specific revs AND a particular load state being achieved i.e uphill - it’s possible that the ECU (or one of these specific inputs) has a role here.

So now off to check each one of these ECU inputs - inspection, clean and where possible some further review on my poor version of techstream.
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 15:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris, (aussiearthur), Its understandable now why you didn't come back sooner, - a lot going on.
Disgraceful behaviour by your Toyota dealer. Unfortunately we hear more and more of this type of attitude and performance from them in general. They are quickly gaining a reputation akin to some poor back street garages, as no idea what they are doing and parts changers at best, with the customer footing the bill.
You should be going back to speak to the overall manager or higher, as there is no improvement, and you have been charged for unneccessary parts not needed, thats illegal.
There is no reason why they should not give you the Techstream readout to back up their dubious claims, this and the fact their 'technician' couldnt recall the codes, is highly suspicious.
You paid for their labour and the hook up of Techstream, which you are entitled to see the readout of.
I would also tell the dealer manager, (not workshop manager) you intend to contact Toyota direct, and do it !
As to the rest of the problems, you seem to be slowly eliminating everything Toyota should have done and acted on.
I have no other information to help, but p.m Tony direct in case Tony doesn't see this.
Tony knows more about these vehicles than even Toyota. Good luck !!
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 15:33    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris, I have just sent a pm to Tony, alerting him to new developments.
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TONYCY11
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Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 409
Location: CYPRUS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 16:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aussiaurther  I see you tried a lot of things to rectify your problem , have you had your prado from new , because if not I am wondering it the engine ecu has had a remap or a flash tune done by a previous owner and has gone wrong as most do eventually because the ecu has been tuned past the tolerance of the safety level and after a period of time does damage to the ecu ,     or the ecu has a problem ,  that you live on Australia where prados are big in numbers where you could try a engine ecu from  from a salvage yard , I know a ecu is expensive second hand but you are running out of options , I am suprised you have not changed the maf sensor for a denso replacement part number DMA-0109 at a cost of 100 euro compared to 300 euro for the exact  same toyota boxed one , for around 150 aussie dollars for a denso maf its worth a try as they can give problems that you are having  , otherwise I think you are right on the thinking of the ecu is the problem since you have already changed the parts that you have mentioned ,  I am sorry I can not offer any more advice than what I have stated , but please keep us all informed with what you do and try .
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Tractionman
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 821
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 16:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

👌👍
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aussiearthur
Newbie


Joined: 06 Mar 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

SURGING FINALLY SOLVED!!!!!

After getting to the point of having very few remaining options, and convincing myself it was an ECU issue - I went back through the listing of ECU inputs that I found in the schematic below (I included the full extract in a previous post).

Using Techstream I re-checked that each of these items was providing stable inputs and reasonably relevant measurements. Except I couldn’t test crank angle or cylinder recognition - largely assumed these to be fairly major inputs that would definitely throw multiple codes and would cause more significant symptoms.

All the readings seemed spot on. And I was really only left with the intake airflow. Readings from the sensor have been hard to monitor properly as there is constant fluctuations. I’d previously discounted this sensor because it gets cleaned frequently and I guess the logic had been that if the sensor was faulty, then the car would have problems running across all rev ranges.

So as a last resort I tracked a second hand MAF sensor down from the wreckers ($50) and plugged it in.

BLOODY STOKED!! Car now runs perfectly.

TONYC11 - you nailed it with your  inputs. Bloody genius who gave me the push I needed to go back over these inputs and to not discount the MAF sensor.

Does somewhat show that the MAF can still largely function, albeit with dead bands that affect specific rpm ranges. Mine was cleaned frequently, but just no longer functioning in specific ranges.

And - a really big thanks to everyone else on the site who chimed in in this thread to help - particularly @Tractionman
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