The Toyota Landcruiser Owners Club

[BigKev]

Hey all, calling on the fellow Amazon owners here,

I have a 2000 4.7 VX Amazon as well as a 2005 D4D LC4.

I have been suitably impressed by the diesel, and am now considering changing my beloved V8 amazon for a 03/04 4.2TD Amazon

I'm sure the refinements are exactly the same, but can anyone tell me how the 4.2TD compares with the V8 if anyone has owned both!
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2000 4,7V8 Amazon

2005 D4D 3.0 LC4

[Google]

[imprator]

I have only owned the petrol version, so have limited experience of the diesel.

However, my opinion...

The petrol car tends to get features sooner than the diesel, and some features just never make it to the diesel at all. For a 2004 car I think (but may be wrong) that the diesel will lack traction control, stability control and variable rate geometry steering. There may be a few other missing features that I don't recall.

There may be nothing on the "missing on diesel" list that you would mind not having, but they're nice to have, and some (e.g. stability control) could prove crucial in an emergency manoevre.

Interior appointments are the same on both cars.

The 4.2 litre diesel engine is an old-school diesel. Compared to the petrol engine it is less refined. It runs rougher, sounds rougher, is raucous when extended and - at least on the cars I have tried - sends a low-frequency vibration through the body when idling. It's nothing major, but it's there. It also sends a vibration through the throttle pedal that can be felt at all speeds. None of these things are a big deal - I don't want to suggest that driving the diesel is like driving a tractor - but I find them significant on a luxury-orientated vehicle.

On the plus side, the diesel of course has much more torque at very low revs. The petrol ulitimately has more performance, but the difference, whilst noticeable, isn't massive. However, the petrol car is definitely more relaxed and a better place to be when you want to use the available performance.

On costs, the diesel gets about 6-7 mpg more (at least when I am driving the two vehicles). However, if buying used, the last time I looked there was a very large price difference in favour of the petrol car. That difference means that you need to do some serious miles if you are to recoup the higher purchase price of the diesel. The diesel, of course, will retain more of its value, but if you are buying a used vehicle the difference in retained value is going to be pretty small compared to the purchase price differential. The diesel also (I think) still needed more frequent servicing than the petrol for 2004 vehicles. For me, taking all factors into account, the petrol car was the more economical car to own.

These are some of the factors that led me to buy the petrol version, but different people have different priorities. However, I have heard several people say that they regretted moving from a petrol to a diesel Land Cruiser, so you might want to take a diesel for a really good test drive before making up your mind.

[Wandering Willy]

I recently bought my landcruiser as a diesel because I couldn't face the fuel consumption of a petrol one so I didn't have a choice if I wanted an Amazon. It's my first diesel car so I am not speaking from a vast knowledge of such things.

To me, the car drives well - it's not a sports car. It's quieter than many cars I have owned, particularly at 60-70 mph. That's partly down to the separate body/chassis construction so there is an absence of the sort of bump/thump and tyre noise you tend to get inside monocoque body cars. I know this isn't an engine issue but the noise of the engine still doesn't dominate.

There is an obvious diesel rattle at town speeds but inside the car the noise is well suppressed. The rumble from the engine is business-like and not tiring like a little high revving engine in a typical small car. Driving the car on town and country roads the engine rarely goes over 2000rpm.

On my car - which is completely standard and has done 55k miles - there is a noticeable increase in performance above 50 mph when the turbo starts to work more. This makes it reasonable/good at overtaking lorries and caravans etc. It feels a bit gutless below that speed unless you get the automatic to drop to a lower gear but it will still accelerate up to motorway speeds on the slip road without leaving you wondering if you will have to stay on the hard shoulder for the next mile or so.

The cost of ownership is probably little different to the petrol version but it was a shock have to buy three 5L cans of engine oil to change it. The diesel engine holds 11 litres (OK, next time I will only need two cans). AND, it comes out in a rush when you take the sump plug out! You may have to change the oil more often than with the petrol engine as well. There is a filter on the fuel line which needs to be changed from time to time but it is easy to get at.

On this topic, the 6 cylinder engine sits nicely in the engine bay with good access to its sides. The length of the engine makes it a little tight at the radiator and bulkhead ends. Access to the fan belt tension adjuster and timing belt cover are a little restricted but not impossible (I have also changed these recently not knowing their life up till now). There are no sparkplugs or ignition system to worry about. The valve tappets can be adjusted rather than requiring shims to reset the clearances but I doubt that is going to be a frequent task). The engine oil filter and starter motor are both visible and look easy to work on ( I have changed the filter but haven't tried working on the starter yet).

All these things leave you with no regrets at buying a diesel version. Fuel consumption is subject to how you use your right foot. I get 20 to 24 mpg depending on my patience and use of the air conditioning (nice in the Summer but it costs). Towing a trailer, town driving, carrying a big load on the roof etc. will all impact the fuel consumption.

I agree with all that Imprator has written but felt I owed it to the diesel version to write what I have.

Willy

[Nor]

Did you consider LPG?
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2004 HDJ100 AHC Auto 160'km, ex 2000 HDJ100, ex 1997 HZJ80GX Africa edition.

[Wandering Willy]

Hi Nor,

Yes I did look into an LPG conversion. I had also heard bad things from Land/Range Rover owners whose engine started to fall apart after 80-90,000 miles after converting to LPG. Mainly valve problems. This was before I heard of the additional lubrication system (Flashlube?) you need if you want to get a long life from your LPG car. Finally, the government have been harping on about leveling the tax on all car fuels at some point in the near future which would make LPG a non-starter (if you see what I mean).

So, I settled for the lowest mileage diesel amazon I could afford. After some long nights spent searching the internet, I got a 2002 GX back in July with 53,000 miles on it. It had had a fairly hard life with the minimum of TLC. It was dirty inside with a lot of scuffs and several dents in the bodywork but it was going for £13k so it suited my pocket. I spent a few bob hiring a carpet shampooer and cleaned out the inside, washed and polished the paint and it looks and feels OK. The last owner smoked so I bought a can of air freshener and spent several trips squirting it into the A/C and the car doesn't stink quite so badly now (or maybe I've just got used to it!).

The other option for a diesel car is to use bio-diesel. There are now several companies in the UK marketing bulk deliveries of bio-diesel. They will deliver from 25 to 1000 litres for around 90-95 pence/litre. You just need storage space. This makes it a few pennies cheaper normal garage diesel and it is supposed to be good for the planet.

I wouldn't try straight cooking oil - old or new - although older diesel cars are supposed to be able to run on it without damaging the engine. The injection pump has a hard time forcing the stuff into the injectors.

Converting cooking oil using caustic soda and meths doesn't appeal much either. Locally, a company tried to make a business out of collecting old chip fat and doing the conversion in bulk but they went bust after a year so the nearest supplier to me is now near Tilbury in Essex, but there are others. They supply in accordance with an ISO standard so - in theory - it's a 'quality' product. The only requirement/suggestion is to replace the fuel filter after the first 200 miles running on pure bio-diesel because it flushes a lot of *beep* out of the tank and fuel lines leading to a blocked filter.

Also, you need to be careful in cold weather as bio-diesel can block the fuel lines in cold weather (waxing) so you need to use a mixture of garage diesel and bio.

However, the bio-diesel is still a future possibility rather than part of a current plan.

Willy

[SJVX80]

Hello all.

Just to add to this thread. I have recently been looking for a new cruiser, having has 5 great years with my lovely old 80 VX 4.2TD . I've driven the later and earlier 100 series 4.2's and think there great, but have decided (and just purchased) a 4.7 VX LPG . Cheaper to run than the 4.2 and such a wonderful thing to drive. the conversion is the latest Prins system and I pick it up next week. I understand the risks with Valve seat damage, and the slight gamble on LPG prices, but I hope 9think) these should work out fine. The LPG should stay significantly chear for the next few years as least, and using valvelube and occationally running on petrol should help the valves....well, only time will tell . I'm sad to see the 80VX go,  but I need to move on now, so hopefully the 100 will be as good....????

Please everyone, standby for the barrage of questions from next week.!

[joinerman]

Iv'e got my doubts about lpg staying cheaper for much longer, dear old Gordon Brown will soon put the revenue up in line with petrol & diesel, so many people are using lpg he's not going to let us get away with it.


Joinerman

[Wandering Willy]

I agree there is a risk that the tax on LPG will go up to the same level as petrol/diesel but the government has been threatening to to it for years now with no action.

Also, there is a surplus of LPG from the North Sea. It is being used in some of the small power stations to produce electricity which looks like a terrible waste to me.

LPG is a lovely fuel. It burns very cleanly in an engine because it is delivered as a gas rather than a liquid so the burn is fairly even - no hot spots so NOx products are low and a well adjusted engine runs well on it - hence the comment somewhere here about the engine oil staying clean - no soot to muck it up!

As an engine fuel it has a very high octane number (118-120) so you don't get knocking or pinking. Its relatively safe to transport (compared to hydrogen or methane). But its low flame speed means that it suits low reving engines better than high reving ones but thats ok for Landcruisers.

If you travel into London you can avoid the Congestion Charge. With this traffic restriction going to be introduced in other cities and conurbations that adds to its appeal.

One point that hasn't been mentioned here. If you are going to convert a modern petrol engined car to run on LPG it is worth having the ECU mapping modified to use the fuel as well as possible. Some conversion companies can offer this along with the fuel delivery kit. You can also get a dual mapped ECU so that it changes from a petrol profile to an LPG one when you change fuel.

Willy

[DaveB]

With regards to the tax on LPG, the current PM when he was Chancellor stated that at least until 2009 the tax on LPG will keep the price of LPG at approx 50% of the cost of 1 litre of petrol.

Remember also this Govt is commited to lowering the Carbon Emissions of the country, more vehicles running on LPG would be a significant way of moving this along.

LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel.

LPG vehicles produce upto 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel !

63% less Carbon Monoxide.

40% less Hydrocarbons than petrol and 70% less than diesel.

50% less particulates than petrol and 98% less than diesel.  

As you can see any Govt would be foolish to discourage people from switching to LPG.

[joinerman]

I don't believe a word our PM say's, do not trust.


Joinerman

[Wandering Willy]

How do you know if a politician is lying?

His lips move

Willy

[DaveB]

[JohnNash]

When I bought my 100 series over 3 years ago I did a LOT of research between diesel, petrol and LPG before I bought diesel and the only risk I found with the LPG was sustained motorway cruising where the engine runs quite lean. This can burn valves and seats. The reports I had were numerous and most came from the LPG installers. As I travel frequently between Stoke on Trent and Glasgow in cruise mode, the risk was too great. The diesel cruises at 2400 rpm with 75mph on the clock and believe me you can't hear the motor at all.

The biggest gripe I have with the diesel is throttle lag. If you need to 'go for it' at a busy roundabout the diesel has a lag between hitting the throttle and powering up the motor. I never had this with my series 80, because the throttle was connected to the pump rack with a cable, not a computer. Does anyone else have this problem?
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2005 Amazon 4.2TD
2002 Honda goldwing 1800
1989 BMW R100RT
1978 BMWR100S (retirement project)
1994 BMW R100RT (last of the marque and mint)

[RADIOTWO]

The biggest gripe I have with the diesel is throttle lag. If you need to 'go for it' at a busy roundabout the diesel has a lag between hitting the throttle and powering up the motor. I never had this with my series 80, because the throttle was connected to the pump rack with a cable, not a computer. Does anyone else have this problem?[/quote]

Hi John

I have a 2004 100 series and I dont find a lag as you put it, but yes you will not be as quick as a petrol, but on saying that, the specs for the 4.2 are only .5 sec slower than the 4.7 0-60

Radiotwo