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BioDiesel - Experienced views wanted, good or bad

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vxtd
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Joined: 16 Aug 2009
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Location: Aberdeen

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

i used to make the bio for a local firm, wouldnt put it in anything worth more than the value of bio placed in the tank.

It is very variable quality and very difficult to control so results vary from tank to tank.

Also it will corrode any brass/copper fittings or rubber o rings will harden and leak in the fuel system.

Worst case ive heard was the brass o rings for the fuel injectors wearing away, and falling into the cylinders - ouch.
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update...  I took the plunge a couple of months ago and started to use a well blended B50 mix (50% Bio 50% dino diesel).  So far the LC is running perfectly and I'm saving about £300 per month.  Anyone planning this route should ensure that the Bio is made perfectly (home made bio can be variable).  Each batch should be tested first!
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Bat21
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Joined: 14 May 2009
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Location: Shropshire

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine used to run his 93 Nissan Patrol on rapeseed oil straight off the shelves from Sainsbury's, he only stopped when the rapeseed oil shot up from 56p a liter to £1.12. While doing so, he claims the MPG improved and there was a marginal increase in performance.

In the current climate with diesel around £1.20 a liter and the rapeseed oil at 85p he is thinking of using it again.
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oleum
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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Location: Northants

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 17:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

@nathanrobo

Interested that you are making biodiesel in Northants. I was considering this about 2 yrs ago when the last price hike hit and we were paying almost £1.30 a litre. Now things are crazy again , its worth reconsidering. Couple of questions though, I had a worry about before and a couple of others that just occured to me.

Where did you source methanol in large volumes? I did see it in IBC for around 40p/l if you bought 1000l but I had real doubts about what to do with it in a residential property.
Same with your oil, do you use WVO and can you actually obtain sufficient from local takeaways these days. My next door neighbor runs a chippy so I was thinking I would talk to him Smile
Is there still duty payable on Biodiesel and SVO/WVO fuels? I heard it was being dropped but don't really know.
What on earth do you do with all your waste wash water, or shouldn't I ask?
I'm thinking if you save £300 a month you must be making something like 500l a month. How much glycerine does that make (50l?) and where do you get shot of it?!

I'm actually a Chemist (teaching these days) and I don't really see what you would be hoping to remove with IE resin treatment. It really does sound like you are taking care with what you make, but this might be a step too far.
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nathanrobo
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 19:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Oleum

I'll try to answer as many questions as I can:

I pay about £80 delivered for a 200 litres incl. barrel of Methanol from e bay (usually buy 2 x 200 litres drums). Next time I'll probably try Trinity Chemicals in Warrington and take the Glycerine that I have stored.  I do use WVO and collect from a handful of Chinese / Indian restaurants (titrates at about 3 -4 ).    As for the duty HMRC have now dropped the duty up to 2500 litres per year (you do need to register for an exception and give the restaurants a 'waste transfer note for the collection'.

Thanks for the info on Resin treatment... I haven't yet tried this but I do go nuts washing my bio and test to ensure that I have a complete reaction, that all glycerine is removed, I also go nuts drying the oil (about 70deg).

If you are interested send me a PM, I'd be keen to find someone interested in splitting bulk purchases of chemicals etc.

regards

Nathan
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.
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TONKAGS 24v
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Joined: 19 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 21:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buyer BEWARE Rolling Eyes BOYO-diesel destroyed my pistons & brand-new injectors Mad Potassium residue in a bad batch left to stand in  my 95/24v. even though it was diluted with regular derv. Cost ££THOUSANDS Embarassed No compensation Crying or Very sad  NOT worth it!!
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uk_vette
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 21:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my son, run 50% new veg oil, with 50% pump diesel in his Toyota Surf.
This was in summer, from about April to September.

3.0L  1KZ engine  (Same as Colorado ) and believe me, it ran great.
Better on economy, power was much improved also.
Bonus, it was good at MOT time with emissions.
To be honest, when he took it to MOT, the tester just said to him, it would be pointless checking the emissions, so just skipped it.
So I have to be in the camp that says new oil is good, but old oil, be careful.

'vette
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nathanrobo
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potassium residue left in the bio was probably due to exhausted ION exhange resin used in the wash process.  Mist washing the fuel until the waste water is totally clear would eliminate all traces of methanol or potassium - the problem is that commercial producers can't afford the time or the cost to water wash.  The buyer then has to trust that the producers process is good... but many are finding Bio to be variable and therefore an expensive risk.

I run the following tests during the process; titration this tests the feedstock's acidity and therefore the amount of KOH to mix with methanol to achieve full reaction, 27/3 methanol - bio to ensure that I've had a complete reaction.   After 5 washes I then fill a jar 50% water and 50% Bio shake it and wait 12 hours or so.  All that should be visible when the oil settles out is oil and water, if there is a third line of soap etc.  the fuel needs further washing. If I see nothing leave the fuel for a couple of days then wash a final time and dry.  I then leave a few days an run of a couple of litres from the bottom of the tank to ensure that there is no residue.  For the LC I then mix with 50% dino diesel.

I had previously ran a Citroen Xsara over 20,000 miles on neat Bio without any issues - got rid of the car a few months ago cause it was such a jallopy that I couldn't face working on it for the MOT
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E320 CDI Avantegarde, C320 CDI Avantgarde (AMG) Landcruiser 100 4.2 diesel series '01 Anniversary number 118,   Fiat 500 classic 1970, Fiat 500 classic 1971, Fiat 1.2 Pop 2012.


Last edited by nathanrobo on Sat Oct 16, 2010 13:17; edited 1 time in total
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TONKAGS 24v
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathanrobo wrote:
Potassium residue left in the bio was probably due to exhausted ION exhange resin used in the wash process.  Mist washing the fuel until the waste water is totally clear would eliminate all traces of methanol or potassium - the problem is that commercial producers can afford the time or the cost to water wash.  The buyer then has to trust that the producers process is good... but many are finding Bio to be variable and therefore an expensive risk.

Quote:
Thanks man. That's the FIRST time I've heard a decent explanation of the chemistry that may confirm it was potassium. The batch came from Enfuels - Thatcham, who are extinct now! Wonder why!! They used a dry wash and it didn't work for my batch. The chem's obviously settled into a concentrate. Total nightmare engine wise. I had just paid a £2,400.00 mechanics bill inc new injectors and pump re-con.


I run the following tests during the process; titration this tests the feedstock's acidity and therefore the amount of KOH to mix with methanol to achieve full reaction, 27/3 methanol - bio to ensure that I've had a complete reaction.   After 5 washes I then fill a jar 50% water and 50% Bio shake it and wait 12 hours or so.  All that should be visible when the oil settles out is oil and water, if there is a third line of soap etc.  the fuel needs further washing. If I see nothing leave the fuel for a couple of days then wash a final time and dry.  I then leave a few days an run of a couple of litres from the bottom of the tank to ensure that there is no residue.  For the LC I then mix with 50% dino diesel.

I had previously ran a Citroen Xsara over 20,000 miles on neat Bio without any issues - got rid of the car a few months ago cause it was such a jallopy that I couldn't face working on it for the MOT
[quote]
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biodiesel update...

The LC recently stopped gave some fueling problems.  After some prevarication I pulled out the injectors and injection pump and sent off for testing.  TT Automotive one of the few specialists that can handle the fly by wire electronic IP on my old LC, told me that they found a gelly like substance blocking the pumps internals.  But other than a blocked internal filter the pump had not been damaged by BD and the injectors had a perfect spray pattern.  After much research and head scratching, I'm convinced that the BD (which is more solvent than std derv) washed all of the accumulated varnish coating from the fuel tank.   If you google diesel varnish there are pages and pages of info about how dino diesel coats fuel tanks with a varnish.  The problem is that BD dissolves this and makes it soluable.  Which means that it can find it's way through filters to your ip.

I've emptied and tried to clean the tank as well as I can, I've also cleaned the pick up filter on the sender unit in the tank, but I'm not sure whether to continue using BD.  Conventional wisdom says that as you switch to BD just change your filter after 1500 miles.  But I reckon that if you are thinking of converting maybe you should empty your tank first and clean with Oxalic Acid or Methylene Chloride (sp) or Methyl Hydrate which is basically diesel fuel cleaner.  

I'm tying to get a more scientific answer... any views?
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TONKAGS 24v
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 19:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

nathanrobo wrote:
Biodiesel update...

The LC recently stopped gave some fueling problems.  After some prevarication I pulled out the injectors and injection pump and sent off for testing.  TT Automotive one of the few specialists that can handle the fly by wire electronic IP on my old LC, told me that they found a gelly like substance blocking the pumps internals.  But other than a blocked internal filter the pump had not been damaged by BD and the injectors had a perfect spray pattern.  After much research and head scratching, I'm convinced that the BD (which is more solvent than std derv) washed all of the accumulated varnish coating from the fuel tank.   If you google diesel varnish there are pages and pages of info about how dino diesel coats fuel tanks with a varnish.  The problem is that BD dissolves this and makes it soluable.  Which means that it can find it's way through filters to your ip.
 
Quote:
Christ! That all sounds expensively familiar! Bio-D just doesn't appear to warrant the risk/hassle. Did you do the spannering yourself?
It's not in any way scientific but if the particle size can be estimated it would be worth adding an extra filter pre-IP. May effect performance though.
I wound-in 40ltrs of svo last week and it runs rough on the stuff but it has a mis-fire anyway which I hope is injector related. Have been considering some good bio-D as a flush once the oil has been used up. Not so keen now!! Rolling Eyes
Will continue diluting with pump derv and injector cleaner for now.


I've emptied and tried to clean the tank as well as I can, I've also cleaned the pick up filter on the sender unit in the tank, but I'm not sure whether to continue using BD.  Conventional wisdom says that as you switch to BD just change your filter after 1500 miles.  But I reckon that if you are thinking of converting maybe you should empty your tank first and clean with Oxalic Acid or Methylene Chloride (sp) or Methyl Hydrate which is basically diesel fuel cleaner.  

I'm tying to get a more scientific answer... any views?
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 21:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not such a big deal really... wished I had followed my instincs though and pulled the pump straight out (rather than trying to diagnose).  I done all of the spannering myself.  The key from a BD perspective is that the injectors had a perfect spray pattern and were very clean and the IP was blocked - so no damage using BD!

I will be putting in extra filtration - I'm also working on better filtration down to 1 micron absolute for my finished BD.  With regards to varnish build up in the tank - this is down to ordinary pump diesel.  So I think I'm going to have the tank removed & thoroughly cleaned before I start her up.  

With regards to SVO,  research suggests that it has long term effects such as gumming which can cause damage.  Good BD is completely catalysed / reacted and will not gum.  Have you though of taking the pipe of your fuel filter and feeding it directly with diesel purge?  You need to vary the rev range for about 10 minutes, that should clear problems with the injectors.  Otherwise you could take the injectors out and get them tested.  When you put them back, don't forget new seals and o'rings, gaskets for the leakage pipes and nozzle holder seals (these are just service consumables for the injectors).
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tdimccullough
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 21:26    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you can't get wvo can you put svo through the same process as wvo to turn it into bio diesel or is this a waste of time?
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nathanrobo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely!  SVO has a known concentration of FFA's, so no titration required.  New oil only requires 1080 grams of KOH mixed in 24 litres of methanol per 120 litres of feedstock, whereas if your wvo titrates at 4 for example, you need to add 1560 grams.  However the finished cost per litre is very different!  I estimate my cost per litre to be about 20 pence, so about £0.91 per gal.  The manual for my machine would help you to understand the process, I have it in pdf if you'd like it... there is also a good BD forum; http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php
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deltafive
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 19:54    Post subject: Reply with quote

Used refined Bio diesel in my Mk4 Hilux it cost 10% less than pump diesel and gave 10% less power so not worth the trouble, and it smelled like a chip shop. Straight veg oil can be used in older engines  but dont put it in a modern engine unless it has been modified, in Germany modified engines using rapeseed oil are quite common but they are definitely not Toyota.
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